Interview with Kaylee
Participant (00:02)
So today we're doing another interview episode with Kaylee Torres. I'll let Kaylee start with a brief introduction about who they are and why they're on the show.
Kaylee (00:16)
Hey, thank you. So I'm Kaylee. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in Washington and Hawaii. I'm also at the associate level in Oregon. I am an autism clinical specialist. So a lot of my work has to do with working with folks that are neurodivergent, doing autism assessments, helping folks that have no been masking for a long time, learning how to unmask, all of that.
Participant (00:45)
Wonderful. How did you get into your career and doing autism evaluations?
Kaylee (00:52)
Yes. So funny enough, my individual therapist, my personal therapist is late diagnosed autistic. And so she went on her own journey exploring that and ended up doing assessments as a way of offering that for her clients. She offered it to me. I didn't at the time think anything would really come of it, but I was curious. So I said, yeah, let's do it.
And then come to find out I scored very high. So we went through the assessment. ended up I got diagnosed as autistic and it opened up just a whole new world for me realizing so much of what I had been confused about in my own experience had an answer and it was neurodivergence. And so that led me to exploring how I could offer that to my own clients.
Participant (01:51)
wonderful. It sounds like that diagnosis was so transformative for you and then you applied that to your personal career to give back to your clients. And I've noticed that too since I'm just very recently diagnosed and I'm already starting to think about how do I incorporate that into my medical practice? How do I make my practice?
Kaylee (02:00)
Yes, absolutely.
Participant (02:11)
more affirming for autistic individuals and more accessible and how do I start to screen people who maybe come in to me for mental health services and have a lot of other misdiagnoses like borderline personality or OCD or ADHD and nobody looked for or assessed autism. And I find a lot of people in my practice that fit that bill where they have a lot of
Kaylee (02:17)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (02:35)
diagnoses and each diagnosis is explaining a little piece of the picture but nobody has put all the pieces together to say actually this looks a lot like autism.
Kaylee (02:45)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (02:48)
What sort of clients do you tend to work with in your practice?
Kaylee (02:52)
Yeah, so I do tend to work with folks who have gone undiagnosed for a long time. And particularly
I work with lot of queer, trans, BIPOC clients, lower SES clients, folks who haven't been able to access these official channels of evaluation for various reasons. And so by the time they get to me, they have this idea, maybe neurodivergence, maybe autism, but they just haven't had the resources to access that before. So that's what I like to
Bye.
Participant (03:32)
Absolutely. I came to thinking about autism for myself after reading Devon Price's Unmasking Autism. It was recommended by a patient. And I was like, okay, I can read this in order to better understand some of my patients. And then the more I read, I was like, interesting. I resonate with a lot of this. But I really liked their point about, you know, BIPOC communities and marginalized communities, not
Kaylee (03:40)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (04:00)
One, not accessing services because of finances. And two, accessing services and then not being diagnosed because you apply a very small criteria of seven -year -old white boy criteria. And if you don't fit that, some clinicians don't have additional training on recognizing alternative presentations.
Kaylee (04:07)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, absolutely. So much of our research and representation is on young white boys. And there's such a lack of understanding of how autism is really this spectrum. And there's so many other ways that a person with autism can look and manifest. And we just don't have that solid understanding.
Participant (04:48)
I was speaking to another person I was interviewing and they were talking about the concept of autism as a wheel instead of a spectrum. And I kind of liked that image. They were picturing the wheel kind of sliced like pieces of pie and different wedges are different attributes. So say you could have a wedge that's the sensory sensitivity profile. And maybe some people are very impacted in terms of sensory.
Kaylee (05:02)
Yes.
Participant (05:17)
sensitivities or pieces and in that sect of the wheel, they would have a large impact. And then maybe like the next sector is social reciprocity.
and maybe that individual doesn't struggle as much with social reciprocity. And then, you know, maybe the next sect is, you know, repetition and routine and difficulty with routine changing. And so different people, their wheel would look different depending on where autism shows up more for them or less for them. And I like that idea because
I think one of the stereotypes I've run into on the spectrum and why a lot of adults go undiagnosed is that we see it as a spectrum of like less severe to more severe, which is still in kind of that pathology disease lens. Like we're staging cancer, know, we're staging autism, or we use level one, level two, level three based on how much support someone needs.
Kaylee (06:08)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (06:23)
But the amount of support someone needs can really vary depending on the situation and in what aspect. So maybe someone needs a lot of support with sensory management, but really doesn't need very much social support at all. Then where do you classify them in that scale? And so I liked that image of a wheel and thinking of different sets within the wheel.
Kaylee (06:27)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that feels much more expansive than just this linear spectrum that we think of. And it makes me think of in my work with queer clients, moving from this binary to a lot of folks will talk about a queer constellation and where they fit in a constellation. So I like that.
Participant (06:55)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
I like that word for constellation too, you know, where do you fit in this whole arrangement and that constellation isn't a straight line. One of the things I've found interesting in my research is the large overlap of the transgender and queer community with the autistic community.
Kaylee (07:15)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Mm.
Participant (07:29)
I'm curious, this is would be speculative on your part. Do you have any speculations as to why more trans and non binary people also identify as autistic or why there's that overlap?
Kaylee (07:42)
Yes, I do actually. There is, yes, such overlap with queerness and transness and neurodivergence in general and autism specifically. And in my research around autism, I came across this word, I think neuroqueer and neuroqueerness. And it talked about
you know, when we're queering something, we're going against the standard, we're going against this normative idea of what it means to be whatever it is we're talking about, in this case, what it means to be your gender. And how autism does the same thing, we're queering the way that we think about brains
understanding and thinking and socializing. And so there is this overlap in pushing against normative standards of this is how you should be, this is how you should interact. And there is sort of that parallel process in queerness and in neurodiversions.
Participant (08:49)
Yeah, I can see that. I know I listened to a podcast at one point, I think it was one by Teresa Regan, but she was talking about that overlap. And one of her hypotheses was that people who are neurodivergent are more open to going against the grain and are less likely to accept a societal rule at face value.
and that may allow people who are neurodivergent to identify and express their true gender identity. Not necessarily that more autistic people are trans or queer, but that a lot of neurotypical people who maybe are trans or queer haven't accessed that within themselves because they're stuck in that binary societal rule.
Kaylee (09:34)
Yes, absolutely. I think it's the same sort of parallel we see in talking about how more progressive folks, liberal leftist folks will be explicitly out as some sort of queer. And it's not that there are more queer people that just happen to be progressive. It's that
your allowance of yourself to be in that mindset, to be open to those differing values, ideas allows you to consider queerness as well.
Participant (10:09)
Yeah, I can see that just being open to the idea of discovering that in yourself.
Kaylee (10:13)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (10:16)
Do you have clients who are late diagnosed as autistic and are also parents?
Kaylee (10:23)
Yes, absolutely. A lot of my neurodivergent clients who are parents are on this journey of considering their own neurodivergence because of what they're seeing in their kiddos.
So I have a lot of parents who are seeing like, my kid is struggling with these social relationships. They're having these sensory experiences and difficulties and relating to like, I remember actually growing up and being very similar, having these same struggles. What does that mean? What is that about? And as they're looking for those answers, they realize, maybe we both are going through the same thing. Maybe we're both
divergent, maybe we're both autistic.
Participant (11:11)
That's a really common story that I've heard so far from other people I've talked to and interviewed. I'm in a bit of a unique position because it didn't, my diagnosis didn't come about from my daughter. She's 18 months. So they've done, I think it's the chat that they do at the really young visits. And so far they don't haven't flagged her for anything. But also if I look back at my mom's notes from when I was a toddler and I've talked to my mom about this, I don't think I would have been flagged on the
either. So some of those toddler screenings I think really again maybe pick up white boy manifestations of autism in a toddler but not other ways that it manifests. In your autistic parents that you work with what are some common strengths that you see or ways that autism makes someone a really good parent?
Kaylee (11:42)
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes, I think there are a lot of strengths that come with that.
And one is just the fact that there's a deeper level of understanding of what it means to be neurodivergent. And there's that increased empathy. And I see a lot of folks who are able to anticipate more like, I think this is going to be a difficult sensory event that we want to go to, or this might be a trigger to something because they know this is something that would impact them as well.
Participant (12:40)
Mm -hmm. That makes sense if you're an autistic parent with an autistic child. Not that every autistic person is the same, but there are some similarities that you may be able to predict. You know, okay, if we're going to this birthday party at a trampoline park with 20 other kids, you know, maybe we should pack the earplugs. Maybe we should only stay for an hour. Maybe we're gonna need some quiet time at home to recover afterwards.
Kaylee (12:51)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Participant (13:09)
Yes. Are there any other things that you have seen as common strengths from neurodivergence?
Kaylee (13:16)
Yes, I would say, are you familiar with monotropism?
Participant (13:22)
No, I'm not.
Kaylee (13:24)
So it's this idea that some brains are optimized for thinking about many things at once, and some brains are optimized for concentrating on one or two singular paths. And that's the monotropic thinking that we see in autism, specifically with hyper -focused special interests, this very deep dive into a singular path.
And I think while normally that's considered a deficit, they're so focused in on this, they miss other things, I think it's actually a strength when it comes to parenting because I see a lot of autistic parents utilize that to deep dive into.
further understanding parenting, child development, coping skills, you know, these things that they're able to really focus in on and get a greater understanding in a shorter amount of time.
Participant (14:21)
That makes sense. Parenting becomes your special interest. And I know for me, when I'm on a special interest, I can learn a lot really quickly because I can devote a lot of time to it and just kind of like soak it up like a sponge. So that makes sense. I've also thought one of the ways I see autism as a strength in my parenting is that I do have all these special interests.
Kaylee (14:25)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (14:48)
and I'm able to do them with my daughter a little bit now because she's still really young. But I could see that being a really great bonding time if you're able to include your kid with one of your special interests. And I want my daughter to grow up to be the sort of adult who has interests and pursues them. Because so often I talk to neighbors or acquaintances and
Kaylee (15:08)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (15:13)
they don't really have any interest. Like they work and they come home and they're parents and they watch TV and they go to bed and that's kind of it. And from my perspective as someone who's always deep diving into something interesting, that's like one of the biggest joys in life is being immersed in whatever my current interest is. And I hope my daughter gets to have that same joy.
Kaylee (15:32)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (15:38)
whether it's the same monotropic thinking or whether she's not quite as hyper focused.
Kaylee (15:44)
Yes, I love that. kids are so naturally curious. think autistic parents can really support that curiosity and that ability to follow that and continue that, continue being curious into adulthood, continue having those interests and passions.
Participant (16:05)
One of the things I've observed, my husband is diagnosed with ADHD. And so we differ quite a bit on that monotropic thinking. I'm very monotropic and he's whatever the word is that's opposite of that. That's him. He would rather think about 12 things at once. One thing gets boring. But I've noticed that in how we interact with Juniper.
Kaylee (16:09)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Participant (16:29)
he is likely to want to switch activities frequently. So like if we go to a kid's indoor play place and she just wants to go up and down the slide the whole time, he wants to like, but wait, look at that. Let's go play with that. You know, don't spend all the time on the slide. And I'm like, if you're into the slide, let's play with the slide the whole time. That's fine.
Kaylee (16:45)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (16:51)
And one of the things I've heard other autistic parents talk about when they have autistic children is that they're really able to understand that special interest and that you see the world through that lens and can really dive in with their kids and just let them focus on their special interest instead of trying to moderate it. Be like, you know, stop playing with your toy cars. You've already played with them for an hour here. Let's do play -doh instead. It's like, okay, let's just play cars all day. That's fine.
Kaylee (17:17)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, I think that that personal understanding of how that can feel so fulfilling really is so helpful in saying like, hey, no, this is why they might be doing that. Let's let this happen.
Participant (17:36)
Yeah, absolutely. You'll become an expert at slides. That's what my toddler's currently an expert at. If there's a slide in the room, that's where she's gonna be. Are there particular things that you see your neurodivergent or autistic parents struggling with?
Kaylee (17:40)
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Yes, I think, similar to what you were just mentioning, mixed neurotype parenting can have those difficulties when you clash in your natural impulses. So that is very much, I'll say I also have a partner who is diagnosed with ADHD, so we have a lot of those similar conversations of, I'm like, let's just do the same thing, and they're like, let's do 10 different things.
Participant (18:20)
Mm -hmm.
Kaylee (18:26)
So it can be a challenge sometimes trying to have that reciprocal understanding and empathy. And with autism, we talk about the double empathy problem, that it's not just that autistic folks have trouble understanding and empathizing with other neuro types, but it's that mixed neuro types have difficulty understanding each other.
Participant (18:50)
Mm -hmm that makes sense because it's so hard for me to picture Why I would want more stimulation like I get that he does and it's also just so hard to imagine from my own experience And the same for him. It's hard for him to picture Things that I find overwhelming and he finds them so underwhelming
Kaylee (19:04)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (19:15)
I could see it also being challenging mixed neurotype parenting, not necessarily just when two parents are different neurotypes, but when the parent and the child are different neurotypes. Do you have any tips or tricks when the parent's sensory needs conflict with the kids?
Kaylee (19:25)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, that can definitely be a challenge. And generally, I will recommend, you know, this is where having an established support system is so important. Because if you're getting overwhelmed and your kiddo is doing something that, you know, they're enjoying, but for you, it's just it's not working to be able to say like, Hey, I'm going to go take a minute. I need to go regulate. I'm going to tag in my other parent or I'm going to
in, you whoever is part of my support team that can come in and be with Kiddo in that when I can't and knowing those limits.
Participant (20:14)
makes sense. We're doing a version of that this week. My daughter loves animals and I think she would really like the fair. We have our Clark County Fair this week and they have all the animal barns.
And I think the fair might be my own personal version of hell if I was designing a hell. There's lots of people, there's lots of noise, there's like a million different very smelly foods, people are touching you, there's the smell of all the animal poop, it's hot, it's sunny. I'm also celiac so I can't eat any of the foods, so I just get to smell them.
Kaylee (20:40)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Participant (20:50)
So my mom is going to take my daughter because she loves sensory stimulation and my husband's going to go with her because he also loves wandering around a crowded fair and I'm going to stay home in my quiet backyard garden probably.
Kaylee (20:56)
Mm... Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (21:08)
And so we tag team again, having that community to say, okay, your neuro type as you know, my neurotypical mother or my ADHD husband is well suited to the fair. Mine is not. And then say going to the library. I love going to the library. I could spend hours at the library reading books to Juniper, letting her play while I read. It's quiet. It's my place.
Kaylee (21:16)
Mm -hmm. Yes. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Participant (21:34)
And he gets very bored at the library because it's too underwhelming to him. And so I take her to the library instead of him. That's one of the things we've been focusing on is trying to play to each other's strengths instead of having this like, we have to divide everything equally in half and everyone has to do half of each task.
Kaylee (21:42)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (21:57)
Trying to say, okay, you know, this is a task I'm well suited for. Let me just do all of this stuff and you're well suited to this. Let's assign you those things. And that's actually been really helpful instead of feeling like we both have to split everything evenly down the middle.
Kaylee (22:02)
Mm -hmm.
does.
Mm -hmm. Yes, that makes so much sense. And I think that's the other end of mixed neurotype parenting. Yes, there can be those difficulties. It can also be such a resource.
Participant (22:26)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, if we were two autistic parents, there would be times that were more challenging because we might both be overwhelmed by the same sensory experience. Whereas my husband and I are so opposite that he is able to pick up a lot of the things that are hard for me. And I'm really strong at some of the things that are hard for him. Like some of the executive function things, keeping track of tasks, sequencing things, making lists, having a plan.
Kaylee (22:37)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (22:56)
I keep the routine and the structure in the house. I'm very good at routine and repetition. And he generates the bit of novelty for the house because left to my own devices, we would never do anything new. We would just do the same thing over and over and over. And so we balance each other out.
Kaylee (22:59)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, I relate so much to this.
Participant (23:21)
Are there any other challenges that you see that are common for your autistic parents?
Kaylee (23:28)
I think the other one I would mention is, know, autistic folks tend to have a narrower window of tolerance. So, you know, when we're thinking about sensory overwhelm or just different triggers to these difficulties, we might have a narrower window of when that leaves our capacity.
Participant (23:58)
That makes sense. I picture it like having a smaller bandwidth or that my cup overflows more easily. That makes sense. One of the episodes I listened to in Teresa Regan's podcast was about regulation and dysregulation and how a lot of autistic people just have to be more intentional in staying regulated and putting effort into that. And that really resonated for me. spend...
Kaylee (24:00)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (24:24)
a lot of time every day working on staying regulated. And then after talking to some of my family members during this diagnosis process, I've realized that they don't, they just kind of go through the day and stay regulated somehow. Like, man, that sounds kind of convenient. But no, I've never had that experience. It's a conscious effort.
Kaylee (24:38)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, absolutely. And also thinking about how delayed processing is so common for autistic folks. You sometimes something happens and it impacts us, but we don't have that understanding in the moment of what happened and how we got here and how we're overstimulated now. But for me, sometimes it's like four hours later, I'm like, that's what happened.
Participant (25:14)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. I've seen that impact less somewhat with parenting more so with my relationship with my husband where there will be times when I can tell that I'm upset and something's off and it takes me several hours of kind of marinating and stewing on it and trying to figure it out before I'm able to say to him, yes, this thing happened and I didn't like it and here's why and it takes a longer time to process.
Kaylee (25:40)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Participant (25:44)
That makes sense.
For the next question, I was asking about tips or tricks on managing any of the following, sensory overwhelm, executive function, burnout. Do you have any particular ones on that list that you have responses you want to talk about?
Kaylee (26:02)
Yes, I have some things for a couple of those.
Participant (26:07)
Okay, well then do you have any tips or tricks for autistic people managing sensory overwhelm, both in life in general and then maybe applied to parenting?
Kaylee (26:21)
Yes. So my first tip is, you know, having a foundation of understanding for your own sensory profile is going to be the best starting place. So knowing what your sensory triggers are, where your sensory overwhelm can happen so that you can proactively plan a little bit more for when that's going to be present.
So knowing like the grocery store can be a really big trigger. Maybe we don't go to the grocery store. Maybe we do pick up. Or maybe we bring our loops or our AirPods to try and dull some of that. Or I have folks who wear sunglasses to the grocery store because the overhead light is just too much.
Participant (27:13)
That makes sense. I also have done grocery delivery. We started that, I think when I was pregnant with Juniper, towards the end of my pregnancy, I was like, okay, I'm done waddling up and down the grocery store aisles. And so we paid for Fred Meyer, they have a boost.
Kaylee (27:19)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Mm.
Participant (27:33)
program where you get free delivery, pay like an annual membership. And so we've used that. And we rarely shop anymore. And then I use my support network if I need to go in person. My mom lives nearby and she shops in person for herself every week. And so if I need something from WENCO, I'll just ask her like, when you're there, can you grab me these three things? And that way I don't have to make a quick trip. Because a lot of those quick little errands that
Kaylee (27:38)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (28:01)
for my mom are really easy and she actually kind of enjoys running errands. For me, it might only take 20 minutes, but it takes a lot of energy and I need a lot of recovery time afterwards. It is not a quick trip.
Kaylee (28:11)
Yes, yeah. It's not, know, autistic folks do so much routing and rerouting in our brain that any sort of transition takes so much emotional labor.
Participant (28:27)
That's something I've also noticed, the task switching can be really difficult. And I feel like that's been exacerbated as a parent to a young kid. Young kids' attention spans are very short, at least mine, my toddler's is.
Kaylee (28:35)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (28:43)
and we can task switch every five minutes or less and all the tasks I'm trying to do get interrupted. I'm trying to cook and then I'm interrupted seven different times and it's so hard to switch each time and then come back to what I was trying to do. That's one of the things that's actually been probably one of the bigger challenges trying to find what activities can we do in a big block.
Kaylee (28:47)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (29:09)
One of the things I found that works well for that, we go out to Battleground Lake and they have a lake you can swim. They have hiking trails. They have a playground and they have a little camp store that sells popsicles. And so we can go to one location. We can park in one place. So we're in and out of the car seat only once. And we could spend the whole afternoon because she could swim for an hour and then we could walk for an hour and then we could play on the playground for an hour.
Kaylee (29:25)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (29:37)
And at least that way you've got less task switching than if we're just hanging out at home and we're playing with each toy for two minutes. And so that's been helpful trying to do more longer outings and to chunk things together where I can just park in one spot.
Kaylee (29:52)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think that is a great strategy for finding, you how can I plan this out a little bit where there's going to be less transitions, less task switching that is going to be, you know, demanded of me and also trying to choose those environments that maybe you know are a little less overstimulating too.
Participant (30:14)
Mm -hmm, absolutely. When I think of the places I go often, it's a lot of nature outdoor -based things because it's less crowded and less loud. And then quiet indoor spaces like the library. Or going places off hours, like sometimes we'll go to Petco to look at the animals, but we might go at 8 a on a Thursday morning and there's not very many people in Petco at 8 a on a Thursday.
Kaylee (30:20)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (30:44)
That makes sense. Do you have any tips or tricks that you find helpful for managing autistic burnout?
Kaylee (30:51)
Yes. burnout, it's interesting because there is a difference between neurotypical burnout and autistic burnout.
And neurotypical burnout, it's still about those systems that are unsustainable, but we're probably going to be talking about different systems. So with autistic burnout, we're talking about those systems that are demanding masking, that are demanding we show up in these ways that are expected of neurotypical folks.
to recover from that sort of burnout, a lot of the tasks are how do we divest from those systems? How do we stop masking? How do we be our authentic autistic self and allow ourselves to stim in public and be less afraid of those judgmental stares or if people make comments, it's those sort of things.
Participant (31:58)
That makes sense. How I've heard neurotypical burnout described is usually more related to work and occupation. It could be, you know, not working a 60 hour work week or many times the recommendation when I talk about being burnt out to friends or family is like, well, just, you know, take a week off and go on a vacation or, you know, here, let me watch your toddler for the day so you can get a manicure and a massage.
Kaylee (32:04)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (32:27)
And those feel very inadequate to me. Like that's not going to be enough to get out of burnout. And actually those things would be more taxing, trying to go on a vacation where I have to travel and be in a new place and go on an airplane. And that would not help me recover. That would just make it worse. You know, going to get a pedicure in a place full of strange smells and people touching you, and that would also make it worse.
Kaylee (32:33)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (32:56)
And so sometimes the advice that we give for neurotypical burnout or even for depression of like, well, just put yourself out there, just be more social. You know, you'll feel better once you get going. It's hard to let go of those as someone who's recently diagnosed and realize that actually I'm not going to feel better once I get going. It's better to stay home and not get going.
Kaylee (33:19)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, absolutely. And part of this too, know, so many autistic folks deal with demand avoidance and how even the existence of an expectation can lead to that emotional labor of trying to anticipate the expectation.
So putting us in environments with a bunch of other people and sensory overwhelm and a task, you know, even if that task is receiving something like a pedicure, there's so much happening internally as we try to navigate what is expected of us and how do we show up and what's going on.
Participant (34:04)
Am I making the right facial expression? Am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? How much small talk am I supposed to make? Are you supposed to tip? How much do you tip? You know, all these different questions that a lot of people, neurotypical people maybe doesn't cross their mind as something that they're doing intentionally.
Kaylee (34:05)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, absolutely. So in my recovery from autistic burnout, it looks much more like, I'll say to my partner, can I just have a day to myself? And they'll go do their own thing because they like the novelty and going and popping around shops and whatnot. And I'm just at home alone with no expectations, no demands on me. can just be.
Participant (34:48)
That sounds lovely. That makes sense. One of the things that I really value that is hard for my husband to understand is being home completely alone. Even if he works from home. So even if I know that he's working and he's in his office, it's not the same as being completely alone because he could come down for a snack or a drink of water at any time. And then there's that expectation like.
Kaylee (34:58)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (35:14)
I guess I should acknowledge your presence and maybe I'm supposed to ask how your day's going and then we're supposed to chit chat and then do I give you a hug or like how do we transition to you going back to work and.
Kaylee (35:16)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (35:29)
Other people have had a hard time understanding why it's so important for me to be completely, thoroughly, predictably alone. And it goes back to that expectation piece, I think, of when you know you're alone, then there's genuinely no expectation versus having to be on guard that someone could walk in with an expectation at any moment.
Kaylee (35:37)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely, because you're anticipating that, you know, it could happen and so you're on alert.
Participant (35:58)
Yeah, that makes sense.
Do you have any advice around recovering from burnout as a parent? Because a lot of what I've read about autistic burnout is, you know, taking a six month medical leave from work and lying in the dark and recovering and I can't take a six month leave from being a parent. And so that's a common question I've gotten is like, how are you supposed to rest and recover when you're taking care of kids and they still need you?
Kaylee (36:18)
Yes.
Yeah, it is more difficult. And I think that's where that community piece is also so important here that you have other people you can tag in and you can go take a break that is actually a break where there is no expectation and demands.
That might take more of that proactive planning and navigating, hey, what does it mean for somebody to watch my kiddo for X amount of time in this day in this place? But that will lead to more opportunities for those true breaks.
Participant (37:05)
That makes sense. I know we send Juniper, she goes to another mom's house, it's a stay at home mom and babysits. And I love having her out of the house for childcare versus having someone else suggested it would be easier to just have a nanny come to us. But then there's this new stranger nanny in my house and my daughter is still there. To me, that's not a break because I can still hear everything that's going on.
Kaylee (37:12)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (37:32)
And anytime I walk through the living room, my toddler's going to want me. So that makes sense. Arranging breaks where you know people are going to be out of the house and you can be in your safe space. Or even creating your own refuge you can retreat to if you have a room that's your room. Or we got a sauna in our backyard and that's my like.
home away from home if I need to get out of the house and away from the noise. And my husband and daughter are home, I'll be like, I'm going to the sauna. I call it my garden house. I'm going to go to my little garden house. Sometimes I don't even turn the heat on. I just sit out there. And so thinking about where you can create little hidey holes that you can retreat to, to really have that break.
Kaylee (37:59)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Yes, that is so important. And I know folks who will do that for themselves and for their kiddos to sort of model that. And so maybe they have a corner of their room or an office space or something that is theirs that they know, hey, when I go to this space, I don't want to be bothered unless it's an emergency.
Participant (38:43)
Mm
Kaylee (38:43)
And they might recreate that for their kiddos too, giving them a little corner of the room like, hey, this is your space. We're not going to bother you when you're in that space, depending on age and whatnot, of course. But letting them know like they get to have that too.
Participant (38:54)
Mm
That makes sense because your kid may also have times that they're overwhelmed and they need a break. And they also want that place to retreat to that you're not going to follow them and pester them. That makes sense. One thing we've done, we made some little wooden signs.
Kaylee (39:01)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (39:15)
And I painted mine, one of my special interests is mushroom foraging. So I painted mine with different mushrooms, but it has one side that's the like, come in, you're welcome side. And the other side that's the like, keep out. And I have that on my office door. So, and my husband made one for his office door, because we both work from home. And we have the tendency to kind of wander across the hall to interrupt the other person to ask a question.
Kaylee (39:26)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Participant (39:40)
And so we can put up the sign if I'm like, I'm busy, do not disturb. Then he knows, don't pop in to ask me what I want for dinner. And we also put one on the downstairs landing, because our offices are upstairs. So then when he's working from home and I have the day off and I'm down in the kitchen, he knows, should he be in stealth mode and not disturb me or should he disturb me?
Kaylee (39:43)
Mm -hmm.
Yes.
Mm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (40:06)
And that's actually been really helpful in stopping some of the unnecessary interruptions where he thought he was just being like social and friendly and that I would like to chit chat and I was annoyed that he was interrupting me helped us communicate that better.
Kaylee (40:12)
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Yes, yeah, that is so good to have signs to have signals to say like, yeah, I need to be uninterrupted right now I'm doing my own thing.
Participant (40:34)
We've also used the noise canceling headphones as a sign. Like if I've got my noise canceling headphones on, it usually means that I have reached the end of my rope and I'm listening to my music to calm down. And you really shouldn't tap me on the shoulder unless the house is on fire or you're bleeding out.
Kaylee (40:36)
Yes.
Participant (41:02)
But something is happening with your audio. It's got like a weird echo now.
I don't know what happened. It was good and then it just changed. Okay, now it's fine again. Yeah. Okay, don't know what happened, but we'll continue.
Kaylee (41:20)
that's so weird. now it's good.
Perfect.
Okay, so weird. I was saying my partner and I use the green, yellow, red system where we'll just check in throughout the day, like, what color are you? And green is like, I'm good, you can check in with me, you can talk with me. Yellow is like, okay, I'm starting to get overstimulated. There's a lot going on, I need some space. But you can still check in if needed.
and red is like do not talk to me i am on the verge of a meltdown
Participant (42:03)
I really like that because one of the things we've struggled with, we've used like a what's your bandwidth at and trying to give like a percentage, but I feel like my ability to sense internally where I am on a spectrum of bandwidth is poor. Like I can tell you I'm doing good and then I'm not doing good. And the in between is hard to discern.
Kaylee (42:10)
Mmm... Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (42:29)
And so the red, yellow, green makes it a little bit simpler than saying, you know, are you at 20 % or 50 % or 70 %? Like all that mushy middle is hard to determine for me.
Kaylee (42:37)
Mm -hmm.
It is, it's so hard. For so long, I could only communicate I feel good or I don't feel good. And it caused so much frustration. But we've translated like, okay, I feel good is green, I don't feel good is yellow. And that includes so much. And then I just have to work on like, okay, when does my yellow become a red?
Participant (43:04)
Mm -hmm that makes sense windows. I don't feel good tip into I'm having a shutdown or a meltdown or it's imminent That makes sense do you have any thoughts around managing shutdowns or meltdowns when you have kids?
Kaylee (43:12)
Mm -hmm.
Yes. So that can be a little bit more difficult. I generally recommend having some sort of structure already in place for when shutdowns or meltdowns happen. And this can be tricky depending on the age of the kiddo.
A lot of folks I work with have kids in the age where they can start to understand a little bit more, like, my parents have feelings and like things happen. So having a system where it's like, okay, mommy's overwhelmed. I'm gonna go to my safe place or my corner or my garden. And they know like, okay.
mommy needs a minute, we're gonna give him a minute, I'm gonna go with other parents or other person. And replicating that for the kiddo as well when they start to get overwhelmed, like, hey, do you need to go to your safe place? Do you need a minute?
Participant (44:28)
That's nice having kind of a script prepared ahead of time of, how am I going to communicate this and communicate it in a way that it's communicating what you're feeling, not blaming the kid for causing something. Because I really don't want Juniper to grow up thinking that, you know, because she was loud and joyful, she made me mad. It's like, no, the noise was overwhelming to my ears and now I need a break.
Kaylee (44:42)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Participant (44:57)
but it's not because she did anything wrong.
Kaylee (45:00)
Yes, absolutely. I think kids can understand that as they get older, giving them more that info like, hey, it's not you, it's the noise. everybody gets overwhelmed sometimes. What do you get overwhelmed by?
Participant (45:16)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I look forward to when she's old enough that we're in that stage. Right now, she's too young to really understand that, and so it's more having a plan in place with my husband. okay, when I am at the end of my rope, how do I tap out and get her to you and then go hide in the closet?
Kaylee (45:34)
Yes.
Participant (45:37)
or under the bed, under the bed is also nice.
Kaylee (45:39)
Absolutely.
Participant (45:42)
What are some signs that adults who are late diagnosed often show or signs that you would see that make you think, it's worth getting an evaluation?
Kaylee (45:53)
Yes. So I would say, there's a couple of things. One, folks who have generally felt like, I am a really sensitive person, or I am a really empathetic person, I'm really impacted by other people and their feelings, that can be a sign. Or of course, folks that experience that sensory overwhelm, that's a big sign.
folks that have those special interests and reoccurring need to look into, what am I trying to say? More like a special interests and hyper fixations. That can be a sign.
There's also a couple of interesting sort of subcategories in autism that are good to look out for as signs to get assessed. One is rejection sensitivity.
if you feel like you are very impacted by rejection and especially perceived rejection. So feeling like this could be a rejection and that is how I experience it regardless of what is going on. That's a big sign or.
thinking about having a hard time with your feelings, expressing them, identifying them. Alexothymia is the word for that, that difficulty with feelings. That's a big sign.
Participant (47:35)
Those are all good ones that I think especially the empathy piece, one of the stereotypes that I had about autism before learning more is that autistic people are not empathetic or maybe are a little robotic versus that there are lots of autistic people who are almost hyper empathetic or extremely empathetic.
Kaylee (47:46)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (47:58)
One of the, I don't remember where I read this, but one of the ways it was said that I really liked was thinking of autism as kind of a spiky skill set. That if you mapped out all these different spectrums, like how empathetic are you? How hyper -focused are you? How that a lot of autistic people are kind of on the extreme end of each spectrum, rather than a lot of people who are kind of average at everything.
Kaylee (48:07)
Mmm.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (48:23)
And that really resonated to me that there are areas where I think I am more extremely one way or the other versus kind of in the middle of everything. That makes sense.
Kaylee (48:32)
Yes.
Participant (48:39)
Are there any other questions or topics that you want to make sure we get to?
Kaylee (48:49)
There's one thing I came across when I was researching around how autistic brains actually function differently.
Participant (48:58)
Mm -hmm. Lovely. How do I want to prompt that question? Let's see.
could ask it about
maybe. Okay. From a clinical perspective, what can you share with us about how the neurology of the autistic brain is different from the neurology of a neurotypical brain?
Kaylee (49:28)
Yes, great question. So when we're thinking about autism, we're talking about a neurotype and these different neurotypes of how brains work. And first, all brains are different because everybody is different. So there's going to be those innate differences. And that is the sort of general neurodiversity that we see in human beings.
But then when we talk about neurodiversity versus neurodivergence, neurodivergence is diverging from that average sort of manifestation. And that's when we see these neurotypes like autism. And we can see differences in the way that brains are actually developing. That's why autism is a neurodevelopmental difference.
because autistic brains we've seen have a couple of differences. They have less connectivity between the two hemispheres, and either more or less, talking about those extremes, connectivity to different sensory systems. And that's why there are longer
processing times, sensory difficulties, differences in development is because it's actually different connections in the brain, as well as there's differences in the pruning process of synapses in the brain.
So generally in development, brains prune a lot of the sort of unnecessary synapses. But with autistic brains, that doesn't happen. There's much less pruning. So there's a lot of sort of excess stuff happening in the brain that makes it difficult to find information as easily or to have the same connections that other people make.
Participant (51:36)
That makes sense that there's different connectivity, especially with the sensory areas, because sensory profiles are so different between each autistic person. And some are characterized by more of a hypo reactivity versus a hyper reactivity, that it would depend on how those connections were wired to each sensory system. That's really interesting. And
Kaylee (51:47)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Participant (52:05)
me is really validating knowing that there are observable, you know, structural differences.
Because it helps let go of the societal standard, our very individualistic society that's like, well, just try harder and pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And if you try hard enough to be neurotypical, you will be. Like, OK, it doesn't matter how hard I try to be a fun, spontaneous, flexible person. Spontaneity and flexibility are not going to be my strong suit.
Kaylee (52:27)
Right.
Yes!
Participant (52:39)
And so it kind of allows me to let go of some of those unrealistic expectations and embrace the strengths that come with a different brain and troubleshoot some of the challenging areas. But the solution needs to be a different coping mechanism, not just working harder to overcome it. Because I think so often that's the societal message is like just try harder and then you'll be able to do anything you want to do.
Kaylee (52:48)
Mm -hmm.
Yes, absolutely.
Mm hmm. Yeah, it really is. And, you know, that forces so many folks to mask and to go into autistic burnout and to have so much shame around the way that their brain works when in reality, their brain quite literally works differently. And that's not a bad thing. It's just a different way of being.
Participant (53:31)
Mm -hmm. I know I've started keeping a journal the last couple weeks trying to write down three parenting wins from the day because I get so focused on the areas that I feel like I'm not living up to the neurotypical standard and I forget to take into account all the little things that really are successes like Breastfeeding my daughter in the morning. She loves that it's good for her immune system. It takes a lot of energy from me
Kaylee (53:46)
Mm -hmm.
Participant (53:59)
And so, you know, give myself a pat on the back, like, okay, we did it one more morning. Or, you know, like we stopped at a farm stand the other day on the way out to the lake and we got some fresh fruit. And that's something that I see as just a basic expectation of life. Like, of course, every parent is going to feed their kid fruit. But it's not actually a basic expectation. That's something that I can get pat on the back like look.
Kaylee (54:01)
Absolutely!
Mmm.
Participant (54:25)
My daughter's getting some fresh healthy food today because I put, I managed to have the bandwidth to make this stop at a farm stand and pick up some fruit. And to celebrate that as a success versus just passing it off as like, that's nothing to celebrate.
Kaylee (54:41)
Yeah, when I think about masking and this internalized ableism that we learn, we dismiss so many things that actually take so much out of us. Like you're saying, like, this is just something I'm supposed to do, you know, as a parent or as a person. And we don't take into account, like, wait a second, this takes a lot out of me. And
That's real and true and valid.
Participant (55:13)
Yeah, it's actually a big accomplishment because it took a lot of effort to do that. Even if maybe for a neurotypical person popping in the farm stand isn't a big accomplishment in their day, it is in my day. Absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thanks so much for taking time to share some of your clinical expertise with us. And I will keep you on my list for referrals for patients.
Kaylee (55:24)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Thank you.
Perfect.
Participant (55:43)
I'll have folks to send your way.
I'm curious, this is not gonna be on the podcast part just cause it's a personal question, but do you have any people you suggest for couples counseling that are more informed in autism and like working with neurodiverse couples? Because we've done some couples counseling through the EFT lens and it's been helpful, but there are places where I feel like it...
doesn't entirely apply like some of the things they recommend. I'm like, I don't know, these don't quite work for us because we're both not neuro -typical.
Kaylee (56:24)
Yes, absolutely. So I actually have a clinician that is just coming onto my practice this week who is neurodivergent themselves, is ADHD diagnosis. And it uses EFT, but is working on a way to make EFT a little bit more neurodivergent inclusive and has had some success with their couples with that.
Participant (56:51)
Okay, do they, I know couples is like kind of different in how insurance covers it or doesn't cover it. Are they out of pocket? Are they insurance based?
Kaylee (57:01)
they're getting credentialed with insurance. So it would be for couples, you could use anybody's insurance that's participating. You just need to choose one person. Yeah. So what is your insurance? Pacific source, yes. So they're working on their credentialing now. So it's out of pocket until they're credentialed.
Participant (57:11)
Yeah, mine's the better life recovery than my husband's.
Pacific source.
Yeah, it'll take, three months or whatever it takes for it to come through. Yeah, that's not a big deal. Okay. Yeah, well, I'll send a message through your practice website then to get set up with them because yeah, there have been a few ways that me realizing the autism diagnosis and stopping some of the masking is negatively impacting our relationship. But I don't want to just like go back to masking in order to make things better.
Kaylee (57:29)
Yeah. So that could be a good option.
Perfect.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, yeah, it's a tough transition in that. So yeah, definitely reach out. I think that could be helpful.
Participant (58:01)
Okay, awesome. Anything else that you wanted to add before we say thank you and hang up?
Kaylee (58:09)
I don't think so. Thank you so much for having me.
Participant (58:13)
Yeah, wonderful. Reach out in the future if there's any other topics that you think of that you'd be interested in speaking on. And then I will edit the episode probably in the next week or two and I'll send you a preview link before it's published so you can listen and make sure there's nothing that you go like, I hate how that sounds, please change that. And then I'll let you know when it drops and send you a link so if you want to share it with anyone that you know.
Kaylee (58:20)
Okay.
Yeah.
Participant (58:42)
you can share it. Okay, well, this is the part where I never know how to say goodbye. I guess it's the end. It's always the awkward part where I find myself like talking in circles and being like, I don't know how to end this.
Kaylee (58:43)
Perfect, thank you.
I feel you. Thank you for having me.
Participant (59:02)
Yep, okay, bye.